Systemd

[system]

I would add another point of view over here in the suggested discourse

The word freedom is probably the most misused one in the entire history of humanity.
It has been used as an excuse for slavery, colonialism, imposing culture and to start a real war.

Freedom of choice could be to kill a person or not, to abuse someone or not, to poison someone or not, to deceive someone or not.

Freedom could also be used for progressive things of course. So freedom of choice can’t be classified as good or bad just like the knife can’t be called a weapon when you use it in the kitchen to slice your bread.

Now in capitalist society and today’s freedom propaganda, the word is reserved for the freedom to hire people(new-style slaves), to privatize common goods and to be free to exploit other people. This is economic freedom and it harms the society by all means replacing community freedom with selfish freedom.

As a consumer in such a society the personal freedom is limited to choosing products to buy and whether to be hired or to hire. And that’s about it.

In the world of GNU/Linux as we all know it there used to be and still there is a community freedom. This freedom keeps the system away from receiving price tags. With systemd in the long term I see that barrier crossed over.

References -
M$ now puts serial keys in BIOS.
http://www.cnet.com/news/windows-8-moves-to-bios-based-product-keys/

Sooner or later all applications will be charged monthly and this will be again controlled by things like systemd. I have seen it on Windows with Adobe Photoshop.

So in this case systemd sooner or later will be used by those who created it and insisted that it will be a standard - the corporations behind it. Through that they will essentially gain control over an area that was beyond their control previously.

And to be constructive I will define what my understanding of freedom is.

We all live in a community whether everyone likes it or not. We need personal space but we can’t live without each other. As such the community and it’s survival is more important than any member itself. Hence the personal freedom starts where the community freedom is satisfied already.

Following that thought I respect all personal liberties except economic freedom. The freedom to hire and exploit other people by taking part of the fruit of their labor is a crime against the community. Essentially this is the new form of slavery covered by the flashy package of “democracy”.

It turned out a bit long and messy so I will just apply a short essay from Albert Einstein written in 1949 with most of it which I agree.

Why Socialism? - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And a newly published statistics of the results from a society based on economic freedom:

http://www.theguardian.com/business...-inequality-davos-economic-summit-switzerland

Sorry about getting away from the main topic but it is very well related and systemd is no exception to the rule and it’s purpose.

 

[Commander]

Jo:

Ko bi hteo meni, laiku (prosečnom? korisniku), da što jednostavnije objasni najbitnije razlike između OS-a sa systemd ili bez systemd

Dragan ti je već sa polu-filozovske strane objasnio, u pitanju je princip ali taj princip na sebi nosi veliki teret kao što je opasna špijunaža, uslovljavanje i kontrola korisnika.

Već dosta puta smo diskutovali oko virusD (popularan internet naziv za SystemD jer se ponaša kao virus) ovde na forumu pa možeš pretražiti nekoliko tema gde smo radili maltene elaborate oko njega.

Uglavnom SystemD je napravljen i stvoren od najmoćnije kompanije na polju Linux komercijalnih serverskih sistema RedHat. Njegovi čelni ljudi kao Lennart Poettering, osnivač Avahi i PulseAudio takođe glavni developer na SystemD i veoma, veoma omražen medju unix geekovima doveli su u pitanje slobodu koju Linux forsira.

RedHat je uslovio bukvalno sve velike linux distroe, početkom prošle godine je kupio CentOS i nametnuo systemD, OpenSuse je morao da pređe na SystemD ybog kernel podrške koju radi zajedno sa RedHat-om kada je u pitanju Suse EL.

Problem oko Debiana se vukao mesecima, na kraju je RedHat ubacio svoje ključne ljude u vrh konzulata Debian DD-ova i započeo infiltriranje i tamo. Da bi kontrolisali kompletan Debian saobraćaj (ovi jako malo ljudi zna), RedHat je kompletno zamenio celu Debian infrastrukturu serverima poznate holandske kompanije Leasweb kojoj je glavni sponzor… pogađate ko, RedHat. Sada svi podaci koje Debian radi i šalje na globalnu mrežu idu preko RedHat mirror-a.

Ukratko, zaobilaženje i korišćenje SystemD je malo više od pukih principa i inita, to je pre borba za slobodu koja je opasno narušena.

 

[Dragan]

mar1n3r0:

The word freedom is probably the most misused one in the entire history of humanity.

Yes, Marin, I agree
But…
freedom of hiring other people is inseparable from the other freedoms that we have, IF(and only IF) the recruitment is based on a voluntary basis.

“In ideal society, people are supposed to do as much as they can, and to use the results of their work as much as they need” right? (Communist propaganda, believe me, I grew up with such big words)

However, people inherent characteristics, such as laziness, negligence and irresponsibility, produced unsolvable problems, and all attempts to establish a realistic socialism has failed exactly on those human traits.
Capitalism is far from perfect, but it is still far better than socialism, as we have seen in the reality in all the former socialist countries.

My two cents

 

[system]

I wouldn’t want to go that much into politics but there is no such thing as voluntary basis when it comes to having food on the table and roof over your head.

Besides a natural characteristic of the capital is to pile up, which is inevitable and causes poverty for 99%.

The socialism was not perfect indeed, but it wasn’t based on colonialism and wars for resources. To me it failed because it was under pressure all the time from the capitalist world, including the threat of war all the time, besides the economic pressure and bribing.

There is no such thing as ideal society, but with the current technological advancement if there is no private property, most of the work would be replaced by robots, the other would be spread equally by those who can work and there will be plenty of spare time.

But…
freedom of hiring other people is inseparable from the other freedoms that we have

Why not ? And if you can own people, rivers, air then what human rights can we talk about ?

I am not promoting the old understanding of socialism, but rather the idea of planned economy and communal property, which has evolved a lot nowadays.

Example Jacque Fresco

P.S. Private property and limited personal property are two different things. Private property is gained by privatizing the profit from worker’s labor, personal property is all the rest which should be defined and redefined via direct democracy in the society.

 

[system]

One of his last shows wasn’t called by chance “You are all diseased”

http://vbox7.com/play:98144f16

 

[Jo22]

Sloboda izbora, znači imaš neograničenu slobodu da izabereš od čega ćeš da zavisiš ???

 

[Sioux]

Lepo je kad postoji opcija da izabereš, pa makar se to svelo na izbor manjeg od dva zla. Ili većeg, što da ne kad postoji neki izbor.

 

[timotije]

So… Sto se tice ove cele fame oko init sistema… Da li je moguce zameniti systemd sa starim sysvinit-om na vec instaliranom sistemu kao sto je npr Semplice koji koristi sidove repozitorijume? I ako jeste koliko dugo cu moci koristiti takav sistem bez systemd-a? Tj. da li se Debian odlucio za systemd i samo systemd ili je ostavio mogucnost izbora. Hvala unapred i izvinjavam se ako je na ovo pitanje vec negde odgovoreno.

 

[Dragan]

@timotije
Moguće je koristiti sysvinit umesto uljeza, ali to ne rešava generalni problem…sistem je dosta osakaćen:
root@trios:/home/dragan/Desktop# apt-get install sysvinit systemd-
Reading package lists… Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information… Done
sysvinit is already the newest version.
sysvinit set to manually installed.
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
bluefish-data bluefish-plugins gir1.2-gtk-2.0 gir1.2-mate-panel libboost-iostreams1.49.0 libdb5.1 libprocps0
linux-headers-3.16-3-amd64 linux-headers-3.16-3-common linux-image-3.14-2-amd64 linux-image-3.16-2-amd64 linux-image-3.16-3-amd64
mate-applets-common mate-media mate-media-common mate-media-gstreamer mate-system-monitor mate-system-monitor-common python-gst0.10
Use ‘apt-get autoremove’ to remove them.
The following extra packages will be installed:
live-config-sysvinit sysvinit-core
The following packages will be REMOVED:
bluefish caja cardapio-matepanel colord gnome-applets gnome-bluetooth gnome-control-center gnome-disk-utility gnome-power-manager
gnome-session gnome-session-flashback gnome-settings-daemon gnome-shell gnome-sushi gnome-system-log gnome-user-share gvfs
gvfs-backends gvfs-daemons gvfs-fuse libpam-systemd live-config-systemd mate-applets mate-indicator-applet mate-panel mate-polkit
nautilus network-manager network-manager-gnome policykit-1 policykit-1-gnome razorqt razorqt-policykit-agent systemd systemd-sysv
systemd-ui udisks2
The following NEW packages will be installed:
live-config-sysvinit sysvinit-core
0 upgraded, 2 newly installed, 37 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 151 kB of archives.
After this operation, 83.0 MB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]

I pored ovakvog reza, ostaće dosta delova koji indirektno zavise od uljeza, jer se raširio kao karcinom, po celom sistemu/linuxu.
Koliko će to sve da traje, i kako će da se završi, to danas niko ne može precizno predvideti…mnogo je novaca u igri.
Jedino pravo rešenje je ono što trenutno jako malo ljudi radi…seckanje karcinoma parče po parče i izbacivanje iz sistema.
Devuan radi na tome, radimo i mi ovde i to je sve koliko je meni poznato, što se tiče debian linije linuxa…nešto ne vidim da se ostali distroi, zasnovani na debianu, mnogo potresaju zbog uljeza.

DOPUNA:
…još jedno pojašnjenje:
Systemd nije samo init sistem, krajnji cilj koji je u dobroj meri već i ostvaren, je da postane kompletan os na linux kernelu…klasično ponašanje krvožednog uljeza…zaraza, preuzimanje i potpuna kontrola.

 

[Sioux]

Nemam link trenutno pa će biti rekla kazala, mislim da sam na nekoj diskusiji na linkedinu video link na kome je bilo reči o revidiranju odluke Debiana i uvođenje opcije izbora init sistema. Tj. da da će postojati sysvinit i systemd .

 

[Dragan]

Sioux:

uvođenje opcije izbora init sistema. Tj. da da će postojati sysvinit i systemd .

Potpuno nevažna činjenica…systemd je već okupirao najveći deo sistema, i to što neće podizati sistem kao init nema nikakvog značaja.
Drugim rečima…farbanje javnosti i prodavanje magle.

 

[Lazar]

Dragan:

Potpuno nevažna činjenica…systemd je već okupirao najveći deo sistema, i to što neće podizati sistem kao init nema nikakvog značaja.
Drugim rečima…farbanje javnosti i prodavanje magle.

Još kada je počela drama oko systemd-a, bilo je reči da je on nepotreban i opasan da bude PID1. Da li ima razlike u sigurnosti ako se samo init od systemd-a zameni nekim drugim init-om ili je ipak “nije šija, nego vrat” ?

 

[Sioux]

http://neofutur.net/systemd-vault

 

[Dragan]

@Lazar
Izvini, potpuno sam prevideo tvoju poruku

Lazar:

Da li ima razlike u sigurnosti ako se samo init od systemd-a zameni nekim drugim init-om

Razlike naravno ima…nije svejedno da li je PID1 okupiran uljezom ili jednostavnim initom, kod kojeg je jako mala šansa da nešto krene naopako
Usput, svaki kršteni proces/servis menadžer bez ikakvih problema obavlja svoj posao van PID1.
Na primer, SMF u OI/Solarisu po difoltu zauzima PID 10 i 12(svc.startd i svc.configd pripadaju SMF…):

dragan@dragan_oi:~$ ptree
10    /lib/svc/bin/svc.startd
  563   /usr/lib/saf/sac -t 300
    642   /usr/lib/saf/ttymon
  568   /usr/lib/saf/ttymon -g -d /dev/console -l console -m ldterm,ttcompat -h
12    /lib/svc/bin/svc.configd
46    /sbin/dlmgmtd
48    /lib/inet/netcfgd

Posledično, možeš na primer da ubiješ SMF kao i svaki drugi proces u sistemu, i ništa se neće desiti, što kod uljeza nije moguće.
Navodno(nisam probao…) uljez može da radi i van PID1, ali sa redukovanim kapacitetom…to pokazuje da je u startu njegov dizajn nenormalan, i kosi se sa fundamentalnim postavkama unixa.